Navigraph AIRAC FMS data (problems)

[Ricardo Rementería Troncoso]

I am using the AIRAC FMS data from Navigraph with the CRJ-200 from Javier Rollón (X-Plane 10.05r1 and MacOS X Lion 10.7.4). The databases from Navigraph do not may completed with data from the users (missing airports, etc.).
X-Plane uses standard the "apt.dat" and other files made by Robin Peel, with the data from the AIRAC FMS and completed with data from the users (as example the airports of the Araucanía). These databases are not the same as those from Navigraph. They walk often 1 or 2 months behind. It's now 20 may, the databases from Robin Peel (X-Plane) are from 2012.04, but those from Navigraph are from 2012.05.
Air-Child uses databases with data from AIRAC (Navigraph?) completed with data added manually.
I've made two flights from and to SCPF Marcel Marchant in Puerto Montt. This airport is used for many flights to the "Extreme South" of Chile (charters, cargo, tourism, medical, etc.). See some more information about it in

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(in Spanish), also here:

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(English and Spanish) and here:

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. I must build this airport (SCPF) for X-Plane, but after the flights I saw in the reports that the flight was more than 4 thousand nautical miles (???). Probably because the airport doesn't exist in our databases (Peter, is this correct?).
Adding data to the databases (like Robin Peel does for X-Plane) doesn't work for our VA (Peter, maybe you can explain the problem...) because in some weeks or months we will use only the data from the AIRAC (oh, oh, oh... no more flights in the Araucanía, no more little/unknown airfields), or... we must learn to live with weird data in our flight reports (and I do not like this last option).
I am now busy with a check/comparison between the databases of Navigraph AIRAC and the "apt.dat" from X-Plane. Many differences and missing airports.
My temporary solution: use only airports in both databases (I've built SCFT Futaleufú, because it's in both databases). Peter, maybe you can make impossible to use airports unknown in our databases (to keep clean our flight reports).
Anyway, it's a big problem if we can't add "missing airports" to our databases, specially for X-Plane users. We did it very, very often (editing the "apt.dat" or building new airports with the corresponding "apt.dat").

 

[Peter Schindler]

Air-Child uses databases with data from AIRAC (Navigraph?)

Correct. We use a mix of Level-D and Flight1 FMS data.

I saw in the reports that the flight was more than 4 thousand nautical miles (???)

I'll correct this .... tomorrow

Probably because the airport doesn't exist in our databases (Peter, is this correct?).

Confirmed (see screenshot below)

Adding data to the databases (like Robin Peel does for X-Plane) doesn't work for our VA (Peter, maybe you can explain the problem...) because in some weeks or months we will use only the data from the AIRAC

I explain: currently, when we import a new AIRAC cycle, all the data is deleted before the new data is written to our database. Example: we have one scheduled route from (or to) Soderhamn in Sweden, ICAO = ESNY. This airport is missing in Navigraph data since the beginning of this year (no worries, the airport is still there). For 4 months now I was adding it manually, otherwise our scheduled routes to ESNY would be invalid. Kind of stupid work :|

Solution: I'm working on a way to import new AIRAC cycles without flushing old data. Everything that exists in Navigraph data will be overwritten, everything that we add ourselves (and does not exist in NG data) will stay untouched. This way we will be able to add custom data whenever we feel like.

or... we must learn to live with weird data in our flight reports (and I do not like this last option)

me neither

Peter, maybe you can make impossible to use airports unknown in our databases (to keep clean our flight reports).

Hm, I thought this ...
[imgpop]http://www.air-child.com/files/pix/sc-ch.png[/imgpop]
... would be enough to keep people from going on with a booking ... obviously it's not :think:
(Hint: the missing airport is not SCEL ^^)

it's a big problem if we can't add "missing airports" to our databases

I agree but it will be solved as stated above.
Appreciate your input, Ricardo!

:hi: Peter

 

[Peter Schindler]

Ricardo, I have added SCPF to our database, corrected the distance in the aforementioned report SCPF-SCBA and adjusted the total mileage in your profile. I have also adjusted the "sightseeing" report, going from SCPF to SCPF to 0 miles (without removing any points from your flight time), simply because there's no way of telling how many miles you had flown. XAcars is not capable of transmitting total flight distance, as was pointed out in other threads on the subject.

Let me add another word to my last post, without meaning any harm to you: I tried to visit some of the "small" airports you fly to in FSX. Some of them didn't exist at all (in FSX default scenery). With others I could hardly identify the runway (only possible because my aircraft was placed on it) as they are just mere dirt strips (again: in FSX).
I think we agree that those flights have to be clearly considered as bush flying. And there's a reason for what I said in previous discussion(s) we had about bush flying: it is very different from usual airline operations. The above problems are only one reason why we said that bush flying can not be efficiently supported at the moment and that we plan to have a separate VA division for that, in the future.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not going to tell you what to do and what not. But if you do it, be aware that there can and will be problems!
The official AIRAC data is intended to be used by airlines in modern flight management systems. That's why the data holds no information about pure GA airfields. It's not a bug, it's a feature...
As I stated in my previous post, we can solve this single problem. But there are a lot of other problems and differences with bush flying and round trips (starting with limitations of the pirep tools) which we can not work around, at the moment. I hope you understand.

 

[Ricardo Rementería Troncoso]

I see and understand the problems.

What I am doing now (in the "extremo Sur") is:
1. Look for airports/airfields using Google Earth and select only those with paved runways
2. Check for these airports in the databases of Navigraph AIRAC FMS data
3. Check for these airports in our databases using "dispatch centre" - "routenet"
If the selected airport is found in all these databases, I can use it in X-Plane (look for the airport in the X-Plane sites), if I can't find it ready to use then I built the airport/airfield using images from Google Earth and the data from several databases (AIP/IFIS, World Aeronautical Database, Our Airports, Airport Nav Finder and The Airport Guide).
This way I am sure I can use these airports/airfields without problems, I give ACH-administrators no extra work and I can fully enjoy of the most beautiful areas on Earth (when I am ready with the "extremo Sur" I will move to the North).
At the moment my free time distribution is: 20% virtual flying and 80% building XP-airports.

:lol: I laugh because I must think about these beautiful words: "Caminante, no hay camino... se hace camino al andar"

Saludos,

 

[Ricardo Rementería Troncoso]

Let me add another word to my last post, without meaning any harm to you: I tried to visit some of the "small" airports you fly to in FSX. Some of them didn't exist at all (in FSX default scenery). With others I could hardly identify the runway (only possible because my aircraft was placed on it) as they are just mere dirt strips (again: in FSX).
I think we agree that those flights have to be clearly considered as bush flying. And there's a reason for what I said in previous discussion(s) we had about bush flying: it is very different from usual airline operations. The above problems are only one reason why we said that bush flying can not be efficiently supported at the moment and that we plan to have a separate VA division for that, in the future.

Today I went from SCAS Puerto Aysén to SCBA Balmaceda, with real weather (it was very beautiful, just like summer). SCAS build from scratch and SCBA converted for X-Plane with authorization of the original MFS-designers (FS9 and FSX). Of course, I had to change many things in SCBA to make it work fine (or "como Dios manda", like people says there). Anyway, I do not know for sure if using this kind of airports is really so different ("bush" flying sounds so negative). These are screenshots of both airports used (flight ACH7668).

Departure from Puerto Aysén:
[imgpop]http://www.remen.nl/XPlane/Screenshots/SCAS.jpg[/imgpop]

Arrival in Balmaceda:
[imgpop]http://www.remen.nl/XPlane/Screenshots/SCBA.jpg[/imgpop]

 

[Ricardo Rementería Troncoso]

Something else about these new airfields/airports in X-Plane. Just look at the activity of the AI aircrafts (who does need a network?)
Today I went from SCBA Balmaceda to a new little airfield in Chile Chico (SCCC), build from scratch.

Departure from SCBA (I must wait some minutes because of the departure of another aircraft, a DHC7 of Air-Child ):
[imgpop]http://www.remen.nl/XPlane/Screenshots/SCBA01.jpg[/imgpop]

Arrival in SCCC (there was it also very busy, see a BE58 just in the air, another little bird waiting at the begin of the runway, and another one at the hold point of the runway..., oh yeah..., all of them aircrafts of Air-Child :rofl: )
[imgpop]http://www.remen.nl/XPlane/Screenshots/SCCC01.jpg[/imgpop]

And just a pair of seconds later, I saw two new aircrafts at the apron. The C172 wanted to go very quickly to the hold point.
[imgpop]http://www.remen.nl/XPlane/Screenshots/SCCC02.jpg[/imgpop]

I am trying to make clear that I couldn't call "bush flying" the activity in a little airfield like this one.

Another point is, it's not so difficult to build such an airfield/airport, and it's very funny to do. There are many aspects I do not have learned or investigated yet, for example autogen areas with little towns, hacienda's, etc., custom taxi routes for the AI aircrafts, and some more, but you know... "Caminante, no hay camino... se hace camino al andar" :rofl: :lol:

 

[Peter Schindler]

"Caminante, no hay camino... se hace camino al andar" :rofl: :lol:

8)
I can understand you a lot better now, Ricardo. These are VERY lovely airports that you design for XPlane! Tinytiny ... but lovely!
And: if you keep flying from one place to another (although I still call this bush flying ^^) you shouldn't have any major problems with booking & reporting. The worst case are round trips, especially when using XAcars or FsPax - both do not sum up the flight length. FsPax only calculates the great circle distance between two airports, when the flight is landed. This way, every round trip is a 0nm flight ... With XAcars... well, you've seen what happens.

And you can do a little more to avoid trouble: if you book a charter and you notice that a certain ICAO code is not listed, cancel the booking, send me a PM and wait until the airport is added. And if you also send me proper coordinates (decimal degrees) and airport elevation, you can make my life a lot easier

btw: I don't think that "bush flying" is a negative term, I'd even say that a good part of UNICEF provisioning flights in distant regions are certainly bush flights. So yes, we should do something in that concern. But let's make one step after the other